“I want my colleagues to understand the nature of language — the fact that it is an enigma, the fact that it is a common phenomenon that is enigmatic. You have the right to experiment. Language is an incredible phenomenon. And of nature it invites us to experiment in the classroom. You’re working in an arena that allows you extraordinary latitude in what you can do with and for kids.”
Only with the fascinating John De Mado can one begin a podcast by pairing linguistics and Uber–and find it leads to powerful and moving insights.
Over many years, it has been pure pleasure to have shared hours of thoughtful and humorous conversation with John as we worked in the language education field. Because John brings a brilliant mind, a keen eye, and a tender heart to world language acquisition, there is no realm of education or life-application that is off-limits when we share. It’s a joy to bring one of these wise-ranging and transformational conversations to you in this podcast.
Bring something to take notes with as you listen! John’s skills of observation and summary of the experience of language provide many anchors for thought and action in the lives of all of us, not only the educators John has been serving so beautifully over his professional career. The delightful, funny, touching, and personally-relevant stories John tells will make you think, and open new perspectives on the enigma of language. I’m betting you’ll want to take notes like I did:
“The thing we need to know about language in general is that there are no experts.”
“The beginning of language is when you sense that you own some language, personal language you have worked for, not memorized… There is not one word inside of us we have not chosen.”
“We need to be helping children to acquire language so that they can pivot on the spot based on the situation in which they find themselves…To assume that children are drive-by victims of language is ridiculous.”
What insights will you experience? What assertions will you ponder? Most importantly for John–and for me: What stories will YOU tell about the language you have selected for yourself to solve your problems in life, and to find “your group”? What stories will you tell about language in the lives of others?
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Guest Bio
Mr. De Mado directs John De Mado Language Seminars, LLC, a full-service consulting firm focusing exclusively on language acquisition. John has consulted to the US Department of Defense Schools in Europe and conducted workshops throughout the United States as well as abroad. A member of several national, regional and state language organizations, John is best known for his motivational keynotes, provocative conference sessions, and insightful professional and staff development workshops. You may visit John’s website at www.demado-seminars.com for further information regarding services and products.
Mr. De Mado has authored several textbook programs for Spanish, French and ESL students as well as composed and recorded a series of instructional French and Spanish rap CD/DVDs entitled La Boutique Magique, Une Boum Cool, ¡Festejemos!, and ¡Somos Campeones!, respectively. Each features original raps designed to transmit specific linguistic functions and related vocabulary, structure and syntax. In early 2018, John’s latest professional development book for language educators, entitled In Search of Language: Enhancing Language Acquisition in the Classroom made its successful debut.
Transcript
00;00;00;29 – 00;00;34;08
John DeMado
And I want my colleagues to understand the nature of language, the fact that it is an enigma. The fact that it is a common phenomena that is enigmatic. You have the right to experiment. Language is an incredible phenomenon and of nature. It invites us to experiment in the classroom. You’re working in an arena that allows you extraordinary latitude in what you can do with and for kids.
00;00;34;11 – 00;01;08;11
Norah Lulich Jones
Hi, I’m Norah Jones. Welcome to. It’s about language. This podcast connects language and culture to life, learning and hope. You’ll experience insightful conversations with creative leaders in the fields of education, business, arts, and science. My guests shed light on the impact of language and culture on individuals and society as they share their stories and experiences. You’ll be informed and inspired as we explore how language and culture make us human and bring hope.
00;01;08;18 – 00;01;24;08
Norah Lulich Jones
In the midst of a challenging world. And it is my great pleasure to welcome my friend John. We’re going to continue our conversation. But here, finally, I’m going to turn on the record button for the podcast. John D’Amato. John, welcome.
00;01;24;11 – 00;01;31;16
John DeMado
Well, thank you so much, Norah. I’m home. And I’m absolutely tickled that you would invite me to spend a half an hour with you.
00;01;31;20 – 00;01;44;15
Norah Lulich Jones
Well, I’m just delighted because it’s always so interesting. We had the most interesting conversations. And, you know, one of the things that I would like to do is say we’ve been talking again about, linguistics and Uber.
00;01;44;18 – 00;01;45;20
John DeMado
Yep. That’s correct.
00;01;45;21 – 00;01;53;19
Norah Lulich Jones
Tell us about that combination, John. Because I don’t know. It’s linguistics and Uber is how everybody would start out thinking about language acquisition and use.
00;01;53;21 – 00;02;19;24
John DeMado
Well, I can tell you, about a half a year ago, I decided to, try something different. I’ve been toying with the idea of driving for Uber for a while, and, so I for half a year, I actually have been. And, what’s interesting to me is being in the car and being able to speak not only English, but Spanish, French and Italian with people.
00;02;19;26 – 00;02;43;23
John DeMado
It is, if there’s anyone out there that would like to improve their second or third or fourth language, and, either don’t have the time, the inclination or the, or the or the cash to travel abroad. I might suggest to you that you get a job with Uber. Drive your car, get paid, and improve your language.
00;02;43;23 – 00;02;45;07
John DeMado
It’s really a wonderful thing.
00;02;45;10 – 00;02;49;18
Norah Lulich Jones
And how does it come about, John? What happens? Give a story.
00;02;49;21 – 00;03;20;21
John DeMado
Well, I get plenty of stories. I mean, generally speaking, what’s so interesting to me is that, I live in Southwest Florida, and of course, the Latino population here is, is substantial. And so, periodically I get a request for ride, and I will pick up someone that will get in the car. And, if they if the person speaks English, you can pretty much discern where they’re from based on whatever regional accent they have.
00;03;20;23 – 00;03;45;11
John DeMado
But in many cases, you’ll find that you get people that will get in the car and they’re they’re silent and so my best gauge o looking at their facial structure, whatever it might be, is that perhaps the person is Hispanic. and so there’s kind of silence in the car for perhaps 4 or 5 minutes. And then I say something in Spanish and they light up like a Christmas tree.
00;03;45;13 – 00;04;05;16
John DeMado
And the first thing they say to me in Spanish is, you speak Spanish? And I said, yes, I do as a matter of fact. And then all of a sudden the whole tenor of the trip changes, and they’re so tickled by the fact that somebody who doesn’t appear to be Hispanic in any way, shape or form, who is a native English speaker, can speak their language.
00;04;05;22 – 00;04;27;12
John DeMado
It’s it’s a lovely thing. And it’s like I’ve always said, the, you know, language is the key to the culture. I mean, without the language, then all else is just travelog. but we really get to know people and what they’re about when you can least engage them to some level with their, in their language.
00;04;27;12 – 00;04;51;22
John DeMado
The interesting part, too, is the fact that, I get a chance to counsel them for those people that that, you know, would like to speak English, but they’re intimidated, etc. whatever it might be, I give them all kinds of advice on how it is that I speak Spanish and French and Italian. So it’s kind of like street cred, because I know what it’s like to be on the other end of the stick.
00;04;51;24 – 00;05;17;23
John DeMado
I understand what it’s like to be at the linguistic deficit with the native speaker. And, and they really appreciate that. And then they’re also very supportive of me, which is wonderful. I mean, I am not a native speaker in any way, shape or form. And so, it’s it’s it bolsters my confidence every time I get a chance opportunity to interact this way with people in the car.
00;05;17;23 – 00;05;19;18
John DeMado
So it’s a good thing.
00;05;19;20 – 00;05;52;22
Norah Lulich Jones
That’s really cool, John. And again, there’s so many of the podcasts have talked about the nature of identity. And here the person, as you say, light up like a Christmas tree and then can get engaged and are sharing and or and welcoming back to you. That’s a powerful statement about the nature of how language does that. You also talked about acquiring language too, that recommending people might try it and that what we’re talking about here today is strongly focused on how is language acquired, what is very nature.
00;05;52;25 – 00;06;15;12
Norah Lulich Jones
And you have some interesting questions that are put out to people about is it primarily imitated, which is strongly how we provide instruction right now in language, but do we actually self-select? Can you talk a little bit then about can take it? We were always driving us from one thing to another as part of your skill set, with little to.
00;06;15;14 – 00;06;16;04
John DeMado
Having a great.
00;06;16;10 – 00;06;30;06
Norah Lulich Jones
Answer, right? Well that too, but no, no, no, the workshops and the and the keynotes that you do, you know, always integrate these concepts. So we’re where is this continuum? Well it’s imitation self-selection.
00;06;30;09 – 00;07;04;03
John DeMado
Yeah. let me just start off by saying that, I for many, many years now, I’ve, I’ve, I fancy myself as being an applied linguist and an applied linguist. Is someone who is devoted to the study of how out of the human mind creates and acquires language. and of course, for anyone that is actually trying to transmit language to students, this is obviously an arena that is of, ultimate importance.
00;07;04;05 – 00;07;27;15
John DeMado
so that’s the first point I’d like to make before I launch into, your question. the thing we need to know about language in general is that there are no experts. I certainly don’t posit myself as one. and I would be bold enough to say that there are no experts. And there’s a there’s a very succinct reason for this.
00;07;27;17 – 00;08;02;13
John DeMado
Language is a common phenomenon. It comes to virtually everyone, except for people that have certain deficits that, and most of those can be overcome. but in some cases, there are physical handicaps that, block language entirely, but generally speaking, when when we think about language, we expect it to come. yeah. The interesting point about it is that, language is very enigmatic because it is precisely because it is so phenomenal.
00;08;02;15 – 00;08;11;16
John DeMado
excuse me, because it is so common. And then, in fact, we know very little about it. and a lot of what we do know is hypothesis.
00;08;11;16 – 00;08;12;05
Norah Lulich Jones
Yeah.
00;08;12;05 – 00;08;35;12
John DeMado
So I wanted to just start by saying that I’m not coming to you as an expert on this, but rather, what I’m trying to do here is to, to develop a conversation within the profession, about a point that I think is, is pivotal to success in the classroom and to helping kids acquire a second language.
00;08;35;15 – 00;09;08;05
John DeMado
I was, impacted a number of years back by Steven Pinker, who is a professor at, MIT, and, used to be a, a colleague of Noam Chomsky. And, he’s a cognitive psychologist. And in reading his book, The Language. Interesting. He mentioned somewhere in there the notion that language is self-selected. And for the life of me, I did not understand that.
00;09;08;07 – 00;09;42;04
John DeMado
And so I did some research and I reflected on it a great deal. And I’ve come to understand what he means by that. And, I would I would say this I would say that there are several commonly held language acquisition beliefs and practices. Or if you would, techniques that have been in place for ever and ever, not only in the United States, but around the world, certain beliefs and practices and those beliefs.
00;09;42;04 – 00;10;07;24
John DeMado
First of all, there’s there is seems to be an in embedded belief that line which is imitated. Okay, okay. That okay that babies when children, come into this world, that basically there’s a silent period and then we talk and they imitate us. we also seem to have a healthy belief that language can be transmitted through memorization.
00;10;07;26 – 00;10;19;05
John DeMado
And I would like to address both of those points. let’s start with imitation. Okay.
00;10;19;08 – 00;10;43;27
John DeMado
And I’m going to start with this statement that because there are aspects of language that are imitated, and I’ll tell you, for example, intonation, anyone that’s listening to me right now probably has me pegged as someone from the New York metropolitan area because of the way I use my language, the the intonations that I use. My pronunciation. Okay.
00;10;43;27 – 00;11;15;12
John DeMado
Yeah. clearly, we have regional accents that we, we use. So intonation, phonology and body language are all things that are imitated. Okay. and a lot of times body language, the different body uses of body language come from our, our cultural groups. Many of my mannerisms, are borrowed from my grandfather, my father, my mother, my grandmother, my uncles, my large Italian family.
00;11;15;12 – 00;11;41;26
John DeMado
Many of my body language attempts and my hand gestures and so forth are directly related to my culture, work. the phonology, if you would. My pronunciation is definitely related to and it’s an imitation of where I grew up. Okay. in tonal patterns, for example. I, I’ve noticed of late that younger people use up speech and up speak.
00;11;41;26 – 00;12;12;19
John DeMado
If you want to look at, look it up on the, on the, on online is basically the, we put it this way. Growing up, I always thought that if you ask a question, the intonation goes up. And if you respond to the question, in other words, you make a declarative sentence, the intonation goes down. Yeah, I noticed that a lot of young people today, the intonation and internal pattern goes up continually, whether it’s a declarative sentence or a question.
00;12;12;21 – 00;12;39;04
John DeMado
So in the end result, everything sounds like a question to me. These are all imitated things. It’s very important to remember that one of the primary things about language is that it identifies you as a member of a group. Yeah. And so, things like intonation, body language, and, and accent, regional action are imitated and largely linked you with the group.
00;12;39;06 – 00;12;56;10
John DeMado
so what I’m saying in a long winded fashion is that, yes, there are aspects of language that are imitated, but and that’s a big word that does not necessarily imply that all aspects of language are imitated.
00;12;56;10 – 00;12;58;11
Norah Lulich Jones
Okay.
00;12;58;13 – 00;13;27;25
John DeMado
The second point is memorization. And I can just very directly say memorization is largely asking children to memorize language is largely inadequate, as the need for language production is instantaneous. In other words, what I’m trying to say is that it’s very nice that a person can recite a poem in French or in Spanish or in Chinese, whatever it might be.
00;13;27;27 – 00;13;58;00
John DeMado
But unless the context requires the recitation of that poem, then that poem in and of itself is worthless as a communicative tool. basically, we need to be helping children to acquire language so that they can pivot on the spot based on the situation in which they find themselves. so again, imitation and memorization are practices that have been held for a long time.
00;13;58;03 – 00;14;42;11
John DeMado
instructional practices and beliefs about how language is acquired. So I would suggest to you that that language is primarily self-selected. And I believe this is what Doctor Pinker is implying. that language is acquired in the crucible of situation and problem solving. Okay, I would be so bold even as to say that as individuals, we do not have one single word inside of us that we did not choose ourselves.
00;14;42;13 – 00;14;42;17
John DeMado
Okay.
00;14;42;18 – 00;14;45;24
Norah Lulich Jones
Interesting statement. John. Say that. Say that again, please.
00;14;45;26 – 00;15;15;15
John DeMado
That that as that is individuals, we do not have one word inside of us that we did not choose or select ourselves. And again, let’s stop and think about this. If you believe, as I do, that language is acquired in the crucible of a situation and problem solving. Because quite frankly, that is quite what language is about. Language is a problem solving device, because human existence is problematic.
00;15;15;20 – 00;15;45;13
John DeMado
From the time that you open your eye up in the morning, we are making we are resolving problems, some of them being small, like, what should I have for breakfast? Or what should I wear today to perhaps more serious or larger problems? and so language is acquired in the Crucible of problem solving a situation. And what we do is we acquire language as we need it, as we encounter problems, as we encounter situation.
00;15;45;15 – 00;16;11;05
John DeMado
we what we do is we, we, we aggressively select the words we need to to to navigate that problem or that situation, providing people with vocabulary that they don’t need. It’s a waste of time. In other words, commonly in a language class, we will teach kids whether expressions. So if you have a child in Wyoming, why should they know?
00;16;11;05 – 00;16;39;06
John DeMado
Oh my God, it’s just Sunni. Or you might you might say you all that child may move to Indonesia someday. Well, okay. and when they encounter the tsunami, they will learn to say, oh, my God, it’s a tsunami. But while they’re living in Wyoming, they really don’t need to know. And so I just go back to the fact that, that language, the language we own is highly personal.
00;16;39;09 – 00;17;00;05
John DeMado
And it is a great, massively selected by the human, by the individual, her or himself. I’d like to share a story with you that contains a very mild expletive that I have to use in order to give you the full value of this story.
00;17;00;05 – 00;17;01;24
Norah Lulich Jones
We are forewarned, John.
00;17;01;24 – 00;17;28;11
John DeMado
We are okay and a mild apology, but I don’t think anyone will be offended by it. And this is a true story, that supports the notion of self-selection. I was in an Italian restaurant, having dinner. I was out on business, and I was having dinner by myself. And seated next to me was a table of seven adults and one three year old boy.
00;17;28;13 – 00;17;56;08
John DeMado
and so it was a very nice Italian restaurant. It was, you know, everyone was having quiet dinner conversations and drinking wine and it’s just lovely. And, this little boy was sitting in his bolster seat and, clearly did not want to be there. So as I was sitting very close to that table, I was watching the boy just because I really had nothing else to do.
00;17;56;08 – 00;18;23;29
John DeMado
I was by myself and watching this little boy was like watching Mount Saint Helens. in other words, what I’m trying to share with you is that I could tell from his his and sweetness, in the seat that there the question to him was, will there be, interruption? The question at hand is when will the eruption occur?
00;18;24;01 – 00;18;50;24
John DeMado
Well, the eruption occurred one hour and 15 minutes later. the of course, the, you know, they everyone was still just having orders and their glasses of wine. And the little boy had his obligatory hamburger and, Coca Cola and followed by ice cream. So the child was on a sugar high to start with at the hour and 15 minute mark.
00;18;50;26 – 00;19;23;26
John DeMado
The little boy raised his hands, his little pudgy arms and hands as high as he could over his head, reaching to the ceiling and out loud he yells, let’s get the hell out of here! So yeah. At which point, at which point, the restaurant fell into complete silence. that. Everyone looked at the little boy. The little boy slid down in his bolster seat because he was having an, moment.
00;19;23;29 – 00;19;57;08
John DeMado
And, it there was this pause, and during this pause, the mother of the child shot a glance across the table to the father of the child. I bet it was a glare of such enormity that if this glare could have, it would have made this man particles in the ionosphere. And I knew there were no words shared, but, I knew what the woman was thinking.
00;19;57;12 – 00;20;21;19
John DeMado
The woman was thinking. You see? Don’t I tell you not to talk that way to the in front of the baby? Do you see the way he imitates you? Now, I would, I would, I would take issue with that thought, but, and I would say that, no, the child was not imitating his father. In other words, let me put it this way.
00;20;21;21 – 00;20;56;24
John DeMado
Did the father say of course he did. And, was the child there when the father said it? Yes, he was, but to assume that children are drive by victims of language is ridiculous. Little kids are aggressive, aggressive acquirers of language, and they’re always on the lookout for language that they think is powerful and that can help them express certain emotions.
00;20;56;26 – 00;21;19;23
John DeMado
Now, I am certain that probably what happened was when the father said this, he probably had some fire in his eyes. And I would imagine there probably were some gestures that went along with it. And he probably raised his voice. And the child, of course, was seeing this and said, I like that I’d be following that for future reference.
00;21;19;25 – 00;21;36;05
John DeMado
And that’s what the child did. The child selected that language and added it to his repertoire. The reason I know it was an imitator was because it took the child one hour and 15 minutes to deploy.
00;21;36;08 – 00;21;36;26
Norah Lulich Jones
Interesting.
00;21;36;29 – 00;22;14;27
John DeMado
All right. Now clearly what age inappropriate, but devastatingly proficient in. Are you in? I mean proficient in the terms that we use it. In other words, it was situationally appropriate. It was age inappropriate. I also know it was an imitated because the the child just didn’t say it. And it’s, kind of absent mindedly the child waited until the situation was intolerable and then deployed a formula of language that he knew fit that situation.
00;22;14;29 – 00;22;18;07
John DeMado
So that is self-selection. That’s not imitating.
00;22;18;07 – 00;22;24;07
Norah Lulich Jones
A specific situation, deployed it to fit the situation. And it was effective. It stopped.
00;22;24;09 – 00;22;51;04
John DeMado
Absolutely. It was, as I say, devastatingly proficient in, age inappropriate. I’m not. I’m not. And I don’t want to think that I’m. I am, you know, supporting that children swear in any way, shape or form. I will even say this to you because I’ve had this discussion with, a number of parents and that I believe that you could use expletives all day long around children.
00;22;51;07 – 00;23;11;06
John DeMado
but not in other words, if you were to deliver those expletives and, not that you should, but if they were done in a monotone voice with no gestures and with absolutely no emotional reaction whatsoever, I would be willing to bet that children would ignore those. It is all in the delivery.
00;23;11;06 – 00;23;15;18
Norah Lulich Jones
It’s probably not an identity to that word. Right? Exactly the way you’ve described it.
00;23;15;20 – 00;23;52;25
John DeMado
Exactly. Children aggressively so lacked language. And it’s not just children. We all do, even as adults. And I will give you another, another one. Another anecdote in and we’ll and we’ll go from there. I have had cancer twice in the course of my life, and, I am fine, thank you very much. and, when I first was notified that I had cancer, I had virtually no oncological vocabulary whatsoever.
00;23;52;27 – 00;24;21;18
John DeMado
I didn’t need to. No one in my family was, affected by it. And and hard to believe in my circle of friends. No one. So I had the, you know, the rudimentary words such as radiation and chemotherapy. you ought to see me talk about cancer now. Interesting. And you should. You, you should see the how extensive my archeological vocabulary is.
00;24;21;20 – 00;24;44;08
John DeMado
How did that happen? Does anyone think that I walked into my physician or my cancer doctor? And the first thing he did was to hand me a list of oncological terms. And he said to me, here are the words, John, I want you to go home. And so at that point I said, these are the words I need to know.
00;24;44;08 – 00;25;09;22
John DeMado
Should I memorize them? And he said, you bet your life, no pun intended. That’s not the way it came down at all. Basically, I selected these words because I needed to kill to, communicate effectively with the individual, the doctor and the doctors that helped my life in the palm of their hands. And so I think it’s important to recognize, again, these are just two anecdotes.
00;25;09;22 – 00;25;38;13
John DeMado
One, funny, one personal, that that we are as human beings. We are aggressive selectors. If you would of of language of the vocabulary. We we again, there is not one word we have inside of us that we haven’t chosen. This has great import. for how we approach our classrooms.
00;25;38;20 – 00;25;40;03
Norah Lulich Jones
It sure does.
00;25;40;05 – 00;26;11;20
John DeMado
Now I’m going to couch this in the subjunctive. If this were true okay. And I want my colleagues to understand the nature of language, the fact that it is an enigma, the fact that it is a common phenomena that is enigmatic. You have the right to experiment. Language is an incredible phenomenon and of nature it invites us to experiment in the classroom.
00;26;11;26 – 00;26;21;10
John DeMado
You’re working in an arena that allows you extraordinary latitude in what you can do with and for kids.
00;26;21;13 – 00;26;55;11
Norah Lulich Jones
Hi, I’m Norah Jones, welcome to It’s About Language. This podcast connects language and culture to life, learning and hope you’ll experience insightful conversations with creative leaders in the fields of education, business, arts, and science. My guests shed light on the impact of language and culture on individuals and society as they share their stories and experiences. You’ll be informed and inspired as we explore how language and culture make us human and bring hope.
00;26;55;17 – 00;27;11;10
Norah Lulich Jones
In the midst of a challenging world. And it is my great pleasure to welcome my friend John. We’re going to continue our conversation. But here, finally, I’m going to turn on the record button for the podcast. John D’Amato. John, welcome.
00;27;11;13 – 00;27;18;19
John DeMado
Well, thank you so much, Norah. I’m home. And I’m absolutely tickled that you would invite me to spend a half an hour with you.
00;27;18;22 – 00;27;31;17
Norah Lulich Jones
Well, I’m just delighted because it’s always so interesting. We had the most interesting conversations. And, you know, one of the things that I would like to do is say we’ve been talking again about, linguistics and Uber.
00;27;31;20 – 00;27;32;22
John DeMado
Yep. That’s correct.
00;27;32;23 – 00;27;40;20
Norah Lulich Jones
Tell us about that combination, John. Because I don’t know. It’s linguistics and Uber is how everybody would start out thinking about language acquisition. And use.
00;27;40;22 – 00;28;06;26
John DeMado
Well, I can tell you, about a half a year ago, I decided to, try something different. I’ve been toying with the idea of driving for Uber for a while, and, so I for half year, I actually have been. And, what’s interesting to me is being in the car and being able to speak not only English, but Spanish, French and Italian with people.
00;28;06;28 – 00;28;30;25
John DeMado
It is, if there’s anyone out there that would like to improve their second, third or fourth language. and, either don’t have the time, the inclination, or the, or the or the cash to travel abroad. I might suggest to you that you get a job with Uber. Drive your car, get paid, and improve your language.
00;28;30;25 – 00;28;32;10
John DeMado
It’s really a wonderful thing.
00;28;32;12 – 00;28;36;19
Norah Lulich Jones
And how does it come about, John? What happens? Give a story.
00;28;36;22 – 00;29;07;23
John DeMado
Well, I get plenty of stories. I mean, generally speaking, what’s so interesting to me is that, I live in Southwest Florida, and of course, the Latino population here is substantial. And so, periodically I get a request for ride, and I will pick up someone that will get in the car. And, if they if the person speaks English, you can pretty much discern where they’re from based on whatever regional accent they have.
00;29;07;25 – 00;29;32;13
John DeMado
But in many cases, you’ll find that you get people that will get in the car and they’re they’re silent. And so my best gauge o looking at their facial structure, whatever it might be, is that perhaps the person is Hispanic. and so there’s kind of silence in the car for perhaps 4 or 5 minutes. And then I say something in Spanish and they light up like a Christmas tree.
00;29;32;15 – 00;29;52;16
John DeMado
And the first thing they say to me in Spanish is, you speak Spanish? And I said, yes, I do, as a matter of fact. And then all of a sudden the whole tenor of the trip changes, and they’re so tickled by the fact that somebody who doesn’t appear to be Hispanic in any way, shape or form, who is a native English speaker, can speak their language.
00;29;52;22 – 00;30;14;12
John DeMado
It’s it’s so lovely, you’re saying. And it’s like I’ve always said, the, you know, language is the key to the culture. I mean, without the language, then all else is just travelog. but we really get to know people and what they’re about when you can least engage them to some level with their, in their language.
00;30;14;12 – 00;30;38;21
John DeMado
The interesting part, too, is the fact that, I get a chance to counsel them for those people that that, you know, would like to speak English, but they’re intimidated, etc., whatever it might be. I give them all kinds of advice on how it is that I speak Spanish and French and Italian. So it’s it’s kind of like street grapes because I know what it’s like to be on the other end of the stick.
00;30;38;24 – 00;31;04;23
John DeMado
I understand what it’s like to be at the linguistic deficit with the native speaker. And, and they really appreciate that. And then they’re also very supportive of me, which is wonderful. I mean, I am not a native speaker in any way, shape or form. And so, it’s it’s it bolsters my confidence every time I get a chance opportunity to interact this way with people in the car.
00;31;04;23 – 00;31;06;18
John DeMado
So it’s a good thing.
00;31;06;20 – 00;31;39;21
Norah Lulich Jones
That’s really cool, John. And again, there’s so many of the podcasts have talked about the nature of identity. And here the person, as you say, light up like a Christmas tree and then can get engaged and are sharing and or and welcoming back to you. That’s a powerful statement about the nature of how language does that. You also talked about acquiring language too, that recommending people might try it, and that what we’re talking about here today is strongly focused on how is language acquired, what is very nature.
00;31;39;24 – 00;32;02;22
Norah Lulich Jones
And you have some interesting questions that are put out to people about is it primarily imitated, which is strongly how we provide instruction right now in language, but do we actually self-select? Can you talk a little bit then about can take it? We were always driving us from one thing to another. As part of your skill set with social standing.
00;32;02;22 – 00;32;17;06
Norah Lulich Jones
A great answer I well that too, but no, no, no, the workshops and the and the keynotes that you do, you know, always integrate these concepts. So we’re where is this continuum. Well it’s imitation self-selection.
00;32;17;09 – 00;32;51;01
John DeMado
Yeah. let me just start off by saying that, I have for many, many years now I’ve, I’ve, I fancy myself as being an applied linguist in an applied linguist is someone who is devoted to the study of how out of the human mind creates and acquires language. and of course, for anyone that is actually trying to transmit language to students, this is obviously an arena that is of, ultimate importance.
00;32;51;03 – 00;33;14;15
John DeMado
so that’s the first point I’d like to make before I launch into, your question. the thing we need to know about language in general is that there are no experts. I certainly don’t posit myself as one. and I would be bold enough to say that there are no experts. And there’s a there’s a very succinct reason for this.
00;33;14;17 – 00;33;49;11
John DeMado
Language is a common phenomena. It comes to virtually everyone, except for people that have certain deficits that, and most of those can be overcome. but in some cases there are physical handicaps that, block language entirely. But generally speaking, when when we think about language, we expect it to come. yet the interesting point about it is that, language is very enigmatic because it is precisely because it is so phenomenal.
00;33;49;13 – 00;34;22;12
John DeMado
excuse me, because it is so common. And then, in fact, we know very little about it. and a lot of what we do know is hypothesis. Yeah. So I wanted to just start by saying that I’m not coming to you as an expert on this, but rather, what I’m trying to do here is to, to develop a conversation within the profession, about a point that I think is, is pivotal to success in the classroom and to helping kids acquire a second language.
00;34;22;15 – 00;34;54;22
John DeMado
I was, impacted a number of years back by Steven Pinker, who is a professor at, MIT, and, used to be a, a colleague of Noam Chomsky. And, he’s a cognitive psychologist. And in reading his book, The Language Instinct Team, you mentioned somewhere in there the notion that language is self-selected. And for the life of me, I did not understand that.
00;34;54;25 – 00;35;28;29
John DeMado
Interesting. And so I did some research and I reflected on it a great deal. And I’ve come to understand what he means by that. And, I would I would say this I would say that there are several commonly held language acquisition beliefs and practices, or, if you would, techniques that have been in place for ever and ever, not only in the United States, but around the world, certain beliefs and practices and those beliefs.
00;35;29;03 – 00;35;54;24
John DeMado
First of all, the there’s there is seems to be an embedded belief that line which is imitated. Okay, okay. That came that babies when children, come into this world, that basically there’s a silent period and then we talk and they imitate us. we also seem to have a healthy belief that language can be transmitted through memorization.
00;35;54;26 – 00;36;06;07
John DeMado
And I would like to address both of those points. let’s start with imitation. Okay.
00;36;06;10 – 00;36;30;29
John DeMado
And I’m going to start with this statement that because there are aspects of language that are imitated and I’ll tell you, for example, intonation, anyone that’s listening to me right now probably has me pegged as someone from the New York metropolitan area because of the way I use my language, the the intonations that I use. My pronunciation. Okay.
00;36;30;29 – 00;37;02;14
John DeMado
Yeah. clearly, we have regional accents that we use. So intonation, phonology and body language are all things that are imitate. Okay. and a lot of times body language, the different body uses of body language come from our, our cultural groups, many of my mannerisms, are borrowed from my grandfather, my father, my mother, my grandmother, my uncles, my large Italian family.
00;37;02;14 – 00;37;28;27
John DeMado
Many of my body language attempts sin, and my hand gestures and so forth are directly related to my culture overall. the phonology, if you would. My pronunciation is definitely related to and it’s an imitation of where I grew up. Okay. in tonal patterns, for example. I, I’ve noticed of late that younger people use up speak and up speak.
00;37;28;27 – 00;37;59;19
John DeMado
If you want to look at, look it up on the on the online is basically the, let me put it this way. Growing up, I always thought that if you ask a question, the intonation goes up. And if you respond to the question, in other words, you make a declarative sentence, the intonation goes down. Yeah, I noticed that a lot of young people today, the intonation in tonal pattern goes up continually, whether it’s a declarative sentence or a question.
00;37;59;21 – 00;38;26;05
John DeMado
So in the end result, everything sounds like a question to me. These are all imitated things. It’s very important to remember that one of the primary things about language is that it identifies you as a member of a group. Yeah. And so, things like intonation, body language, and, and accent, regional action are imitated and largely link you with the group.
00;38;26;08 – 00;38;43;12
John DeMado
so what I’m saying in a long winded fashion is that, yes, there are aspects of language that are imitated, but and that’s a big word that does not necessarily imply that all aspects of language are imitated.
00;38;43;12 – 00;38;45;13
Norah Lulich Jones
Okay.
00;38;45;15 – 00;39;09;15
John DeMado
The second point is memorization. And I can just very directly say memorization is largely asking children to memorize language is largely inadequate, as the need for language production is instantaneous. In other words, what I’m trying to say is that it’s very nice that a person can recite a poem.
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