In This Episode
In Season 6, Episode 9 of It’s About Language, Milton Alan Turner joins Norah Jones for a deeply reflective conversation about language, identity, belonging, and the power of human connection. Drawing from more than four decades of teaching French, Spanish, and AP African American Studies, Milton shares how language education shaped his own understanding of voice, culture, and community — and why curiosity may be one of the most important qualities we can cultivate today.
The discussion moves through personal stories of growing up between cultures and dialects, traveling through Morocco, Thailand, Vietnam, and Côte d’Ivoire, and helping students recognize that language is not simply about vocabulary and grammar. It is about context, relationships, perspective, and understanding how people experience the world differently. Milton reflects on the beauty of difference, the importance of organizations and collaboration for educators, and the role language teachers play in helping students negotiate meaning and navigate human interaction.
Throughout the episode, Milton challenges listeners to embrace curiosity instead of judgment, to recognize the power of voice and storytelling, and to see language learning as an act of liberation rather than limitation. The conversation also explores the future of education, the dangers of focusing only on outcomes instead of process, and why helping students become adaptable, thoughtful, and critically aware may matter more than ever in a rapidly changing world.
You’ll Hear About
- Why language teachers are uniquely positioned to teach interpersonal communication and empathy
- The importance of curiosity, humility, and lifelong learning
- Growing up navigating different dialects, identities, and perceptions
- How language can both liberate and marginalize
- The power of organizations and professional communities for educators
- What Milton learned from studying and traveling through Morocco, Thailand, Vietnam, and Côte d’Ivoire
- How students benefit when multiple language varieties and identities are valued
- Why representation matters in language education
- The intersection of AP African American Studies and world language teaching
- Why education should focus more on process and critical thinking than simply outcomes
- How storytelling connects cultures, generations, and communities
Timestamps
00:00 – Introduction to Milton Alan Turner, veteran language educator and former ACTFL president
01:51 – Milton’s path into teaching French, Spanish, and AP African American Studies
02:50 – Becoming a language learner again through Bambara studies in Côte d’Ivoire
04:26 – The importance of professional organizations, mentorship, and educator connections
07:21 – Why language teachers are uniquely positioned to teach interpersonal communication
08:43 – Growing concerns about intolerance and the suppression of linguistic and cultural differences
11:49 – Language, voice, power, and the ability to liberate or marginalize
13:44 – Growing up navigating multiple identities, dialects, and cultural expectations
16:49 – Creating classrooms that value all language varieties and ways of speaking
19:10 – Connecting language learning to music, sports, culture, and personal interests
23:45 – What Fulbright-Hays programs are and how they shaped Milton’s global perspective
25:02 – Lessons learned from Morocco, Tunisia, Thailand, Vietnam, and Côte d’Ivoire
29:42 – The power of storytelling traditions across cultures and generations
30:35 – Hospitality, humility, and unexpected human connections abroad
35:03 – Moving beyond comfort zones and embracing cultural learning experiences
37:26 – The story behind Milton’s WorldViews podcast
39:45 – “Be curious, not judgmental” and the importance of lifelong curiosity
41:10 – Teaching AP African American Studies and finding connections across disciplines
43:06 – The strengths multilingual and multicultural students bring to communication
44:33 – Authenticity, audience awareness, and adapting communication without losing yourself
45:57 – Why education should focus more on critical thinking and process than outcomes
47:21 – Final reflections on language, identity, belonging, and human connection
Key Quotes
“Difference is normal. Difference is good. It’s not better or worse. It’s just different.”
“Language has the power either to liberate or to subjugate.”
“We are the only discipline where we actively teach interpersonal communication.”
“The beauty of human existence is discovering and embracing those differences.”
“Be curious, not judgmental.”
“It should be a sense of liberation and not subjugation.”
“We should be providing students with the ability to get wisdom out of knowledge.”
Resources Mentioned
- ACTFL
- Ohio World Language Association
- AATF
- Fulbright-Hays Programs
- AP African American Studies
- Bambara language studies in Côte d’Ivoire
- Ted Lasso and the phrase “Be curious, not judgmental”
About the Guest
Milton Alan Turner is a veteran educator with more than 40 years of experience teaching French, Spanish, and AP African American Studies. He has spent nearly four decades teaching at San Ignatius High School in Cleveland and has held leadership roles with both the Ohio World Language Association and ACTFL. Milton’s work focuses on language, culture, identity, storytelling, and helping students understand the power of communication across communities and experiences. Through international study programs, Fulbright-Hays experiences, and his WorldViews podcast, he continues to advocate for curiosity, cultural understanding, and the importance of human connection through language.
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Transcript
Norah Jones(00:00.344)
I know you’re going to enjoy and benefit so much from this wonderful conversation with my guest, Alan Turner. Former president of the National Language Organization Actville, Alan has taught French, Spanish, and now AP African American Studies at St. Ignatius High School in Cleveland, Ohio. He has degrees in French and linguistics and educational technology and global interactions.
He served on so many panels. He’s been on Fulbright Hayes seminars in Morocco and Tunisia and Thailand and Vietnam and is a leader in every area and he has a podcast. But we go back to the basics when we talk about all the things that he has experienced. B identity. It’s identity. Once again, Alan has navigated his identity through languages.
And as he put it, being caught between two worlds, as a black youngster growing up in a predominantly white high school and then returning to his predominantly black culture and home. Blending these experiences, he says, made his perspective unique. Indeed, we come back again to the nature of language’s identity.
And seen through his very personal and wonderful lenses shared with us so openly, you’re going to find it something to be able to contemplate, to think about in your own life, as well as to enjoy as a conversation. Enjoy this conversation with Alan Turner.
Tell us who you are.
Alan Turner(01:51.774)
Okay. Well that could be an interesting philosophical question, but
Norah Jones(01:56.129)
I believe it.
Alan Turner(01:59.762)
I’ve been teaching French, Spanish and now AP African American Studies for over forty years. I started off teaching at Clark College in Atlanta early on and then for the last thirty-nine years at St. Ignatius High School in Cleveland. Thanks to my former French teacher who talked me into going into teaching and talked me into Ignatius. He got me involved in foreign language associations with the Ohio Foreign Language Association, now Ohio World Language Association in ACFA.
which then led me to eventually be part of the board of Ohio World Languages Association and then most recently not with ACVAL but sort of from my mentors really teaching me the importance of being involved in membership organizations and doing connections and so that’s the same thing I try to pass on from him is just the importance of connections, learning from others, and also n always learning. One of the things I really enjoyed from
last summer when I was part of the AATF of Hobright to Côte d’Ivoire, besides learning lots of things about West Africa and that being something I’d wanted to do for years. I’d been to North Africa and East Africa and hadn’t made it to West Africa yet. But we spent the mornings every day learning Babara, sort of modern Malenke, Modern Made, and it was very fulfilling and also very humbling to be a student of language again. I’ve studied
about a dozen languages off and on with varying levels of proficiency. But it’s also very s exciting and very humbling to be back in my students to shoes and being a novice learner all over again and rec recognizing all the challenges and the importance and so as a teacher remembering the importance of contextualization and repetition and patience that just because I’ve been doing it for fifty years doesn’t mean that I can expect somebody else to get it right away. So that was really fascinating for me to be
a student again and seeing the langu seeing language through new eyes again.
Norah Jones(04:01.25)
That’s brilliant. How many s young people do you work with on a daily basis there at Saint Ignatius?
Alan Turner(04:07.378)
probab I think it’s about a hundred five classes of Spanish, Spanish, French and then f alternating years. I don’t this year but next year I’ll have AP African American studies again. So normally about five classes of twenty ish students.
Norah Jones(04:10.968)
Mm-hmm.
Norah Jones(04:25.932)
You’ve started out by speaking so strongly about organizations and connections. And I know I personally have been thinking a lot about the human connections that are part of almost addressing the artificial intelligence that is out in the world and the screens that are out in the world, but also that idea that these connections help to open doors. Can you express a little bit in addition about what kinds of experiences you have had in
connectedness and in joining and in leadership and bringing others together and how that relates to the language world.
Alan Turner(05:04.558)
Well, like for me personally, I always was a pretty good student and a fairly independent person with a pretty good size ego and sense of myself. It’s one of the first things I learned is sort of I can’t do everything al alone or by myself. As much as I might want to or try to, then you really do need to learn from others. So that was one of the first most important things that are in language. And that’s also very important for a lot of language teachers now where perhaps some
Spanish teachers may be lucky enough in certain districts or larger districts to have colleagues or someone else teaching the language. But I it’s really saddening to me now that a lot of teachers are sort of islands onto themselves, that they often are the only teacher in their department or in the school or in their district. And so that makes it even more important for them to reach out and probably in person, but to collaborate with people to find out
Even if it’s just commiserating. It’s like, God, this is awful. I know what you’re saying, to realize that everybody’s facing the same challenges, that you’re not out there on your own, that everyone’s I’m dealing with the same issues. But then also to be inspired by others and to encourage others and to learn from others. So that was a very important for me I think for me early on to s sort of learn a little bit of humility and learning I can’t do it by myself and that there’s always something to learn from others and even for my students. I don’t know what they’re
Yeah, not just finisher from another ad adult. I that organizations are great for that, for learning new strategies, new tips, or just commiserating and consolation with others, but also being open to students and hearing them. I started back in the eighties where the largely was little technology and just the textbook and there was a tendency to want to be the stage on the stage and knowing everything, but also learn very often having some students that were
heritage speakers or other things that I could learn quite a bit from them as well and use their talents and use their gifts in school, which now I know is called asset based pedagogies, but at the time it was just for me just like, good teaching, I don’t have to do this by myself. I can leverage and use the students of the classroom. And a lot of times the students react to that. It makes it real for them. As a student of linguistics, I’ve always been always realized the importance of pragmatics or language in context that
Alan Turner(07:21.708)
Words don’t have meanings in and of themselves. You always have to be cognizant of whom you speak to the your interlocutor, the person you’re talking to, who they are, their background, and the situation of the context. And so words and conversations have different meanings depending on who says them, to whom, and in what context. And we always have to make our students aware that and I always have to be very cognizant of that. In languages, we’re probably the only discipline where we actively teach.
interpersonal communication. A lot will teach presentational or interpretive, but we are the only one that really have to teach negotiating meaning with others and recognizing the other person for who they are and respecting their perspectives and practices and bringing that into our understanding.
Norah Jones(08:06.712)
Does language education then have a special gift to give to societies where I believe you will correct me if you’ve felt that I my understanding is off base, where people tend to believe that there is information to be received and potentially information to be given out, but that whole negotiation of meeting, the whole interlocutor, interpersonal stuff seems to indeed be not as frequent.
And but very much needed in our society? That was a strangely worded opening question, but
Alan Turner(08:43.16)
But absolutely. One the things that last year as president of Actville and this year and in the world, one of things that’s troubling to me is what I see as an increasing institutionalization of intolerance at of discounting others and discounting their backgrounds or certain others and certain backgrounds of certain languages by trying to restrict access and status of for visas for certain people coming into the country or
Trying to come up with executive orders of making English official language, or when you have the president of the United States saying that he doesn’t have time to learn somebody else’s damn language, we’re sort of going beyond just discounting, but almost a vilification to where we’re trying to attack birthright citizenship. Or in certain states, I think it was Virginia and Iowa, where they’re trying to restrict funding for students going into dual
langu dual college credit enrollment classes that somehow they can be in basic education, but they don’t have a right to a premium education where we’re as if we’re trying to create a new class of citizens or separate citizens. So absolutely I think we need to you accused me before pa sounding like a looking like a minister and I’m gonna sound like one now, that we need to be in solidarity, that we all are each other’s brothers and sisters. And it really bothers me.
This attempt now to try and create different classes and separation of people and actually instill an intolerance for others where the first thing we should be doing from my w I view is one of my goals in language is to teach difference and respect for difference. That difference is normal, difference is good, it’s not better or worse, it’s just different. And to expect that in a language, that they’re not gonna say everything in French or in Spanish or in Mabara or in Arabic as we do in English.
Because it’s a different language. So expect and embrace that. And that’s part of the fun of it. But a lot of times we want to have everything the same and expect everything to be the same and expect everyone to be the same way. And that’s that’s not how we are. That’s not the beauty of human existence. The beauty of human existence is discovering and embracing those differences. And it bothers me that there seems to be a movement now to suppress or ignore or those or to be intolerant of those differences.
Norah Jones(10:57.654)
Thank you for that expression. And I’m going to dig a little bit on that because you have these various languages that you have learned. You mentioned about your background in linguistics. And there is in your voice as you speak an energy, delight, or when speaking about things that are not delightful, still a really strong feeling. There’s energy behind all of it. And that energy is about the positive aspects of difference, of
Connection of what language and culture can mean and how it reflects reality. Why do you think, Alan, that there is a fear of all of that? In what you have learned and what you have experienced in your studies and travels and work, why is it that there is fear of that kind of acceptance of diversity and different?
Alan Turner(11:49.774)
I’m I think as a student of language and also as a someone who loves writing and literature that in voice and in language there’s power. And it could be a two-way sword power, and language has the power either to liberate or it also can have the power to subjugate. But I think that’s one of the power that everyone has a voice. And hopefully everyone can use that voice to express and liberate themselves and communicate.
But there is often a fear of how one may use that voice than the other. So I think that the fear is often in the power of voices and in the power of of community. The idea that if you get many people of like mind together to work in community, that that can frighten those that may have a different viewpoint or that may want to maintain a
diseglibrium or a power structure that may be beneficial to them. So often for the disenfranchised, their voice maybe the only power that they have. And then the more that people are able to move into their voice and recognize the power of their voice and then organize along the power of the voice, that can be rather frightening to those that may be in power or have a different agenda.
Norah Jones(13:05.31)
Thank you very much for that clear expression. And let me see if I can tap some stories of things that you have observed of this type of dynamic or ones that are related to the concept of acceptance or rejection. I think that that’s a a worthy concept for any conversation about how language is in use in the world. In your education work, in your travels, any place you want to pick it up reuse.
Spent some time experienced something that you know is a great story to share with regard to this kind of dynamic, the power of voice.
Alan Turner(13:44.418)
Well, I just don’t for example, for myself growing up, I’ve always well, being black American growing up in Cleveland, I went to a predominantly black grade school, but then went to a predominantly white high school, say and then Georgetown was predominantly white college. I just automatically in sort of going to high school, sort of discovered differences in language and and
cultures and in both sides where when I was in Ignatius, I was often viewed as being sounding too black. But then I come home, I was sounding too white. And then also for my summers, my parents divorced right before high school when I was in middle school. And so I grew up in Cleveland, but my father moved to Atlanta. So then I spent summers in Georgia. And then sort of the same thing. In Georgia I sounded too northern. When I came back up in Cleveland I sounded too southern. So very early on I sort of realized the importance of perception of language
first for all that’s actually rather disconcerting until after a while for example my brother was a year younger he always had this need to assimilate more and that bothered him perhaps much more than I did. So he always tried to fit in so he made a purpose of sounding more southern in the south or more northern in the north or the other while I was a little bit more independent. For me it took me a little while but eventually I was comfortable with just being me finding my own voice in between there.
But social influences are very important. So I also learned from my brother, the important I couldn’t just ignore the other person’s like, damn it, this is how I am and sort of I you do in order to communicate effectively, do have to sort of understand that there can be a downside to that, the sounding different or sounding southern if you’re northern where you prejudice do go into that. So if I sound too so southern in the north, then I could be viewed as being
not quite as intelligent or slower in the South if I sounded too northern that could be viewed as being arrogant and pushy rather so having to recognize that there are language doesn’t have prejudice, but people bring their prejudices to language. And so that was one of the important lessons that I had to learn at first and sort of learn from my brother with the seeing the importance for him to want to fit in. And then for me to realize that if I don’t and if I assert my independence that
Alan Turner(15:59.032)
There can be a benefit to that, but then there can also be a cost and recognizing how others are gonna see that understanding. Again, recognizing the other, the interlocutor in their context.
Norah Jones(16:09.614)
Yeah. Now that depth of experience and reflection on that experience and even and and bringing your brother in his experience in and absorbing that and using that also for for your own growth. How have you helped your students, those with whom you have worked on your various projects and in the various organizations, what you have brought when you do your your travel and your Fulbright Haze projects and other such things around the world? How
How have you shared that? What are some of the ways that that has popped up as an important aspect of what you’re able to give as a gift based on your background?
Alan Turner(16:49.802)
One of the things I try to do is to value all language varieties and sort of what again and act for what LJ Randolph, the president before me, and now our current president, Dr. Kishana Heinz Gaith, is doing with her languages liberation, is that I I’ve tried to create an environment in classes where all language varieties should be valued and so that there is not a an English or a French or a Spanish and that all linguistic varieties have a value.
it just again it’s a context and situation and sort of excuse me, understanding that. And also centering, for example, when I teach French where I I studied I’d lived in France for a year in Nice, in the south of France, but and when I was there, I knew lots of Algerians and lots of Moroccans and lots and lots of people from Martinique and Guadeloupe. So my experience of France has been of sort of la francophonie of knowing of of the French diaspora and sort of the same thing in Spanish that it’s I didn’t learn
Or the Spanish dialects that I speak, I are not Castilian with the Mosotros. It’s much more Caribbean, Latin American, perhaps with a little bit of Mexican in there. So it’s I try to expose my students to the diversities of languages and saying that there are there are multiple ways of speaking and there are multiple varieties and there are multiple types of speakers. There are in fact perhaps more French speakers look like me than look like Parisians. That there are many, there are many.
speakers of color as well as in Spanish. And so to show students that perhaps like a person, a short white man with a little mustache and a b and a baguette, it’s like that is a French speaker, but that necessarily shouldn’t necessarily be the image or icon of a French speaker that you have, that it probably is somebody from North or West Africa. Yeah, absolutely. And so the same thing’s in Spanish that there are multiple dialects right or Spanish we’re using.
in different dialects and so that get them accustomed to the differences and expecting and embracing differences. So that as well when they’re speaking the other day, I don’t want to criticize or attack their languages and allow them to find their own voice again in their own native language as well as in learning the other language that it should be. Growing up I always always loved writing and reading and and so when I started studying languages, I always viewed languages as being like toys where I could just
Alan Turner(19:10.05)
put them together like little Legos where I could assemble them in different ways to create different stories and situations. And then when I started learning French and Spanish, like, okay, slightly different rules, but little different Legos where I can create different pieces and different realities. And sort of getting my students to hopefully see that, to see different possibilities in language. And then again, it should be a sense of liberation and not subjugation, that it shouldn’t be, well, no, you’re saying this wrong or no, that you have to say it this way. Well, there are multiple ways of saying it. It’s like, okay, you can do that.
But recognize if you say it this way, this may be the reaction. So that there are multiple ways of saying things and they all have validity, but it may be more or less advantageous depending on the situation and making them aware of those choices. And economics are the referred to as opportunity costs. That hey, you can do it this way, but then recognize you may be losing this. So there are other advantages of doing this. So you can choose, and I’m not saying any of those are invalid, just recognize that choices have consequences.
Norah Jones(20:08.77)
You have a clearly from the very early part of your life, a very powerful, open, excited personality. And I’m going to state it. You can tell me that I have overstated it, but that the study of languages and literature have provided you with open doors along the way that you have been willing to open and find out that there are more open doors and more open windows as you have done so. For those who may have not had
either the personality or the kinds of background to have begun to learn this early, how have you helped youth, adults, to gain a sense of the curiosity or the energy or the opportunity to open a door or a window and get that process started for them?
Alan Turner(20:56.714)
a little bit of of a technique and one things I think now advantage to happen just using technologies of the internet. Where w with me growing up, I was happy to get a month old newspaper from another from another country. And physical vinyl records or film maybe there’d be a movie once a year that might come into
the Cleveland area that I could get to see, but just the pure access that students have now. And then not just access, but also in what they might be interested in. If they’re interested in music through Bad Bunny or in French Nayako Mural or or in sports with seeing like Victor Wimbeyama or others that they c students can connect on multiple levels with the languages that it was much harder for me when I was a student. I loved the language, but I was still getting the
traditional Castilian, Madrid, Spanish or Parisian, French, Edit Piaf and Jacques Bogal and not anyone that looked like me. While now my students have available to them a wide range of personalities in all the languages. So if they’re interested in basketball or soccer or music or writing, they have access to people that look like them or have similar interests. So I just try to get them point them in a direction of if you’re
interested in art or if you’re interested in music or interested in sports, well, here’s someone or here’s something you might want to follow, or here’s a website that you look but there to make those connections, which were much harder for me in the late seventies and nineteen eighties. It was the love of language that eventually allowed me much later, when actually frankly, when I got to France to see, there are people that look like me. There is a connection, which I didn’t get in the classroom. And of course it took me almost seven, eight years to see. While now with
thanks to internet and Spotify, YouTube or others, those connections could be a little more immediate. Now I think the downside to that is because of that immediacy, sometimes students are have a tendency to brush things off automatically that they don’t have the they’re not used to s dealing with things or sticking with it right away. And so sometimes have to, okay, well the first doesn’t doesn’t interest you right away. Well here, try something else or try something else where
Alan Turner(23:08.578)
sort of my older generation, we were sort of accustomed to that, had a little more and more sticking with it necess we out of necessity. Well now when they have so many choices that there’s the tendency of like, if I don’t like this right away, why go back? Like, well, don’t dismiss it automatically. If you don’t like the first one, there are multiple other choices. You can give it a second or third try if you you want to. So just getting students to not dismiss automatically if they don’t make
an immediate connection. Like, well, there’s some other things we can try as well. And we’ll find a connection and it doesn’t have to take that long, but don’t dismiss it because your first experience was bad or not to your satisfaction.
Norah Jones(23:45.634)
There’s always an educational specificity to each generation or timetable, isn’t it? You have been speaking of opening doors and and and trying on different things and keep trying, you have been on several Fulbright Haze experiences. For those listeners around the world that not may may not be familiar with Fulbright Haze, can you provide a background into what it is that you that you were engaged in?
And why it was offering those opportunities. And then where what you did Yes, I can hear you now. Did you lose me for a while?
Alan Turner(24:16.49)
Okay, can you hear me?
Okay, yeah, I was like okay, I c I could I heard the beginning of your question, but not quite if you could repeat that.
Norah Jones(24:26.358)
Let me restate it. Yeah. Let me restate it then. Okay. I think we’re we’ve got a little slowdown here. So we’ll we’ll ask my producer to kind of just go deal with it and get rid of one if you can’t hear it. I’ll ask the question again. Speaking of opportunities, options, and trying new things, Fulbright Haze. You’ve been on several few Fulbright Haze experiences. Not everyone around the world that’s listening to this knows what Fulbright Haze is.
So perhaps you can say what it was that you applied for, how it comes about, what you did, and how that unfolds, how it unfolded for you.
Alan Turner(25:02.006)
Okay. unfortunately the programs have changed quite a bit and actually it’s sort of in limbo as of right now. But on my first experience I actually started off with my colleague, an English colleague of mine who was applying for National Endowment for the Humanities summer seminars. And he encouraged me to apply for a seminar which I actually participated in in nineteen ninety two on English language literatures from Africa, the Caribbean and the South Pacific. And then after I
‘Cause I would had studied and was doing with French speaking literatures from there, but then learning about African l learning sort of about what some have referred to as postcolonial literatures or world languages and English sort of fascinated me. And so once I applied for that, I got onto a mailing list back in the nineties snail mail and received an application for Fulbright Hayes programs. And so back then they had programs that could either be for elementary or high school teachers or for
high school and post secondary teachers. So as a high school teacher, I could apply for any program. And at that time they had around ten to twelve programs a summer that were available and you could choose your first three. And so they were open to st teachers of humanities in different countries to study different topics. And so the first year that I applied there was a program to Morocco and Tunisia.
There was another to Brazil and I think the other was to Argentina. And so I applied to Morocco and Tunisia as my first choice because in teaching French three I was teaching about the Maghreb and North Africa, but I knew next to nothing about it. Said I knew something about West Africa and the Caribbean, but North Africa and Southeast Asia I knew absolutely nothing about. So I was just everything that was out of the textbook. And so I sort of wrote the application and said, like, yeah, this is part of my curriculum.
And I know only what’s in the textbook, but it’ll be wonderful to sort of experience and get things to bring back to the classroom. And I was fortunate up that year to get it. So we spent five weeks touring all over Morocco and parts of Tunisia. And at the time I didn’t know any Arabic. They taught us a little bit of Arabic beforehand, sort of spoken Arabic and not the alphabet. So actually, side note, after that the next year the NEH had a program teaching
Alan Turner(27:22.922)
Arabic and Arabic cultures to language and history teachers. So I spent two years in the National Arabic Language and Culture Institute where I learned Arabic and technically got certified in Arabic from that from those two years. But at the Ohio State, it was centered at the Ohio State University here in Ohio. But Fulbrights were great for getting together a collection of about twelve educators to go to
different countries. The one in Morocco and Tunisia was run by Amade. So they arranged different normally it was the morning we would have lectures and then the afternoon touring and cultural excursions and really getting to learn much about other cultures where I sort of learned being in North Africa, I’m sort of a doer and being there had to learn to sort of to just be. Sort of just learning to not try to control everything simple, but just like I don’t have to do everything. I can just be and actually for my
I did a little bit of acting in college and that’s something that my acting teachers would always get back. It’s like yeah, so sometimes it’s just being in the moment, just taking back and reacting and like that old expression, we have two eyes and two ears and one mouth. And sometimes we just need to take everything in before we speak or do something. So I was fortunate in nineteen ninety-three to do Fulbright Hayes in Morocco and Tunisia. Then again in two thousand and two to Thailand and Vietnam. And normally the Department of Education would take applications from different organizations.
So they set up the programs and then offer them for applicants. And so my second was to Thailand and Vietnam. And again, I nothing about Thailand is what I was teaching, but with Vietnam, former French French began Indonesia, sort of the same thing. We’re in teaching about the francophonie in Parker, the Caribbean, a little bit of North Africa, but knew nothing about Asia and never been to Asia. So again, the same thing. It was addressing a gap of what I was teaching to be able to
covering it and actually in the A P French literature course that I was teaching at the time, I think we were doing Marie Duras and some of her works and Southeast Asian. So something to then address a lack of what I was teaching to like want to address French spoken all over the world, but my experiences didn’t allow me to do much of that in depth. And then last year with ATF being able to do it in Côte d’Ivoire and study
Alan Turner(29:42.764)
a little bit of West African history and storytelling traditions and I did a project and talking about jelly and historical and grio storytelling traditions, which sort of going back to my one of the reasons I love language has always been for the of the importance of language and stories with that connection. So that’s one of the things that I love sort of reinvigorating or passing on the sort of this love of ideas of storytelling, whether it be through oral or
literary traditions but the impairance of stories and connections and connecting past, present and future.
Norah Jones(30:16.994)
What’s your favorite s what are some of your favorite stories? I would not dare limit you to one. In those experiences of going to those cultures for those projects, what potentially like what touched you, what surprised you? However you would like to anchor your stories.
Alan Turner(30:34.882)
I guess for the first when I was in Morocco, one of the first that touched me. I had there’s actually a l rather I should wouldn’t say significant, but there’s a Moroccan community here in Cleveland and I’d met a couple of brothers who were here that ran restaurants and they were saying, if you go to Morocco and you go to Mohammedia you should go and meet our family and invite you over for dinner and other things. So I actually I got the phone number. I get old.
snail mill nineteen nineties and with you trying to I took a train over to contact them and then for whatever reason I couldn’t get through on the telephone and it’s like I was getting these weird sounds and I I didn’t know was it a busy signal, was it disconnected? I didn’t know what the it was supposed to sound like. Nobody was speaking. And there was a cab driver that was helping me and actually looked at the name. It’s like, Wait a minute, is this the family? There are two streets with this name, but I think I know the family and sort of drove me around and went to this one house and wasn’t it to another
on the other side of town and eventually after about an hour and a half, I’m the right place. And so then when I asked him how much the fare was and I was gonna give him a tip, he looked at me like, no, I was actually was almost offended. It’s like, no, this just hospitality. So we do. It’s like the I would hope that you would do the same thing there to help with connect with the family. But this idea of hospitality and the openness in Morocco was something that always touched but again being sort of humble and gracious idea of
Not coming in as if knowing and running everything, but asking for help and being polite and trying and like just learning a few things like shukran and just as long as being able to say hello and thank you, that’s those little things can go a very long way. And just the generosity of people has always really astounded me that just by being human and being open and humble, that the extent to which people will open their hearts and their homes to you has just always been to me amazing and humbling.
Norah Jones(32:31.586)
That is brilliant. That is brilliant. And that was in Morocco specifically that story. What did you have what kind of experience did you have when you ended up in Asia?
Alan Turner(32:41.646)
Excuse me. In Asia. actually and I also when I was in Thailand and Vietnam, but then I actually remember when I was in China two years ago and in Thailand last year for ACTFO. I was sort of used to w sort of standing out in the United States where I’d been in many situations in high school and college where I was one of the few blacks and also I’m about six two, six three, two hundred pounds and a deep voice. So it’s I even if I don’t stand out, I stand out and people recognize me or notice me anyway.
But in Asia that really was that really is taken to a different level where it’s I’m large but not excessively large in the United States. But in Asia I was viewed as almost being a giant and also being black. So it’s just also getting used to And yet, people were just very gracious and very nice, but just very cute. I says, here’s this very tall black man that doesn’t necessarily know the language and just the the curiosity people coming up. It’s like, Who are you? Where are you from? Seeing anybody like you? And so it just was
Interesting. I tend to be believe it or not, I tend to be more of an introvert as I said growing up like my brother was the one that the extrovert always wanted to connect, and get along with other people. I was if I didn’t it’s like fine, I was happy with my book or my music or something else. So being the center of attention was a little bit jarring for me where it’s like I developed ways of sort of dealing with that in college of sort of ignoring it where I couldn’t in Asia. And I was glad I didn’t, ’cause it also sort of drew me out and then
got me to s to learn a l some more words of Thai and Vietnamese and others, but it was just a little interesting being used to that where before I would be tried to get thought I was getting used to standing out in a crowd or there very much, I stood out much more in crowd. Which then the opposite when I went to Co d’Ivoire last year and then when I was in East Asia ten years ago in Tanzania. Sort of the relief of being the opposite where it’s like,
I didn’t stand out. Like last year when I was in Côte d’Ivoire, there were two two of us who were black and then the rest were too white. And just for me sort of the opposite of like being in a group where I didn’t stand out, where I blended in for once where I wasn’t the one that stood out. So coming out and seeing, just being used to seeing things that were entirely black and being in a group where it’s I looked much more like the group we were studying than being the visitor. So it’s just
Alan Turner(34:59.894)
Interesting seeing it both sides of the coin.
Norah Jones(35:03.042)
And when you experience that, how did that change potentially your cultural or linguistic understanding of the experience? ‘Cause that’s an interesting observation, but it’s also an experience, not just an observation.
Alan Turner(35:17.602)
can always for me was always having grace when I said that getting back and one of the things I try to tell my students but also learning that I have to do the same thing myself getting beyond my sense of comfort getting on my my comfort zones that often learning a different language, learning different cultures, meaning you have to experience things that you’re not used to and can be a little bit uncomfortable. And that offering was like, okay, I’m used my first tendency is often to be the intradiverted and to be inside. And when people are coming out to me
My first instinct is often to go back into retreat and like, no, that often could be viewed as being rude. That’s like they’re taking that first step. They’re being gracious to me that I have to reciprocate and sort of getting back to myself to where somebody reaches out to go look back and reach out as well and to accept that’s the b the thing for me is to and sort of the same thing with telling my students to that if I expect them to be able to feel a little bit of discomfort that I’ve got to be able to model the same thing too. Or also the same thing in the classroom, as I said, where it’s like, that
getting them to run as much of the classroom as possible or to offer their gifts and their experiences. And so that often means sometimes going off of the script or things that I may have planned, but that’s a part of the beauty of the you can plan things, but the plans can often go awry and learning to deal with the suit situation and circle cute. So for me it was often getting used to getting outside of my comfort zone and being gracious enough to accept the possibilities and accept because sometimes I’ll want to
No, leave me alone. It’s like, no, accept others’ gifts, accept others’ graciousness. That there’s wonderful joys and I had said wonderful experiences of great people that I might otherwise not have if I just sat in my cafe with my drink inside my book and I’ll look up and speak. And like my girlfriend tells me that that all the time, where it’s like get out of myself. And as a language person, it’s like I should know that. But going out and speaking, connecting with people, well, I’ll just want to sit down and not. It’s like, no, speak, engage, be around other people if you’re there. That that’s
the whole point of that. And so it’s getting learning to get out of myself and get myself out of the way to enjoy the experience in the culture and not get so stuck inside myself and full of myself.
Norah Jones(37:26.454)
That great catch. I love it. Thank you for that story. Alan, you have a podcast you started in twenty twenty one called Worldviews. Why did you start the podcast? What is it about?
Alan Turner(37:37.068)
out. Well originally as I mentioned though, my friend Sandra is who’s also a minister but also does radio and has been in media for a long time. And she wanted to do a podcast. And so me being the techie, I was like sort of playing around with some software and some other things. So it’s like, well let me play around with some things to see how it works to show you. So it’s it actually started off with me just sort of playing around with audition and some other things and then learning how to publish it after I edited to help her along. And then essentially it became
Unfortunately what happens with me with writing originally and now with podcasting others if something ticks me off or something hits one of those buttons so it became certain issues that came up where it’s just like, okay, I’ve gotta say something about this or other. So it came up for and s from sort of issues that may have occurred in the world that sort of touched me and led me to say something about them or things that I’d written about previously that I sort of brought up. But I haven’t originally sort of that I just sort of a worldview trying to do things that dealt with
language and culture, although l it sort of expanded beyond just language and culture to sort of race and politics and other th other things. Often joke, we’re sitting in the United States, you’re not supposed to talk about race politics or religion. But I’m a black Catholic who teaches at a Jesuit school with a master’s degree in political science. It seems like all I ever talk about is race politics and religion. So that’s sort of how that came about and helping Sandra learn how to
do a podcast like okay, where’s a venue for me to talk about race, politics, religion and language?
Norah Jones(39:08.81)
And you like to say every target. The congratulations, friends. Congratulations. Congratulations. And speaking of which, here we you have a platform today. We’re talking about language, we’re talking about your experiences, we’re talking about the world as it is, the world as we would like it to be, however you’d like to put it. Before we well finish, what is it that you’ve like, first of all, I can’t believe the woman didn’t ask me this, or even it no matter what she would have asked me in addition.
I want to be sure that I say this today because this is something of importance to me to share with these listeners.
Alan Turner(39:45.07)
I guess like I did in New Orleans with Actful, that I guess was originally from Walt Woodman, but I first became aware of it from the Ted Lassell TV series. But I like the idea of like being curious. That again, instead of being intolerant or even for myself sort of wanted to be comfortable, that we should all decide to be curious and not judgmental and not closing up or intolerant, but that and again sort of what
Often we are as children we are when we’re younger and sometimes life or education tries to sort of weed that out of us. But we need to go back to being curious and to cultivating that curiosity in others. If anything it’s like try to get back to that childlike curiosity.
Norah Jones(40:26.656)
What will that do? What does that open for people?
Alan Turner(40:29.526)
I think it opens up that idea of acceptance of difference and sort of being a stateness and intolerance, but also joy and excitement, that discovery of the curiosity and we have of discovering new things and finding new things, that and realizing that there’s more to the world than we might have imagined or experienced or to others. And so there’s that wonderful joy of the unexpected from the unknown.
Norah Jones(40:54.714)
What’s next for you? We’re gonna take a look into your into your upcoming future. What what are you going to be doing, thinking about and trying to make a difference in or making a difference in with your strengths?
Alan Turner(41:10.186)
And last year I started teaching AP African American Studies. So it’s besides teaching the French and Spanish, I’m really excited with learning and more things about that course. And actually actually one of the things that led me to applying for the ATF Fulbright was that not only for getting materials from all right French classes, but also for like win materials that I was doing for the Africa unit or African Civilizations unit of the
AP African American Studies class. So I’m looking forward to engaging, doing more with with that. And also sort of seeing the a lot of times in education we try to put walls and barriers between okay, French or Spanish, or even AP African American Studies. And sort of the longer I do this, you know I get, I see that the walls are rather fluid. That it’s that things that I’m teaching in one class goes through all and
Actually I was joking with someone at the Ohio World Language Association conference earlier. There was the old joke of Ginger Rogers and Fred Asteer that Ginger Rogers did everything Fred Asteer did, but just backwards and at heels. Well we as language teachers, we’re teaching critical thinking and writing and literacy and mathematics and science and art and culture. We’re teaching everything that everybody else does, just in a different language. And so that’s one of the things that I’m becoming more aware of now that I’m teaching
in English for one of the first times in my career of African American studies. Like, well, I’ve been always been doing this in parts of my Spanish classes and my French classes, consciously or unconsciously. So just becoming more and and that’s probably also one of the reasons why I’m sort of so excited about that class, but also realizing when I’m doing that I can do more of this in my French classes or my Spanish classes, that there’s this synergy going back and forth between the others. Sort of going back to that curiosity that
Yeah. That at first viewing that as being something different and there is a difference, but it’s not separate, that there was a connectedness to it all.
Norah Jones(43:06.478)
It’s so wonderful when you realize they’re all they’re all connected together. What what would you say is like the gift or the gifts that African Americans can give to the language world, to the education world, to that interconnectedness of all learning and all life that is just a special gift to give and that you’re seeing in yourself and in your students?
Alan Turner(43:10.902)
Right.
Alan Turner(43:33.886)
would say hopefully diversity and acceptance, the idea of that situations and audience matters. And so sometimes we want to view it as being a deficit to change speech for an audience, but actually realizing that that it is a natural gift to the to recognize your audience and then to change and adapt to that. But it’s also quite natural that you should learn to adapt.
To an audience to learn different ways of communicating in different styles. And so the more the more styles and dialects and rhetorical devices and strategies you have, the more effective you become. If the idea is to connect and to get a message across, the more strategies you have, the more ways you’re able to do it, then the better off you are. And so just getting not put into a box that just one rhetorical style or there’s one literary language or preferred style that you have to use. Use everything.
Norah Jones(44:32.792)
Do you think that students sometimes give a pushback like I don’t I want I need to be me. I don’t want to be I don’t want to be flexible for everybody else. They need to know who I am. How do you address that?
Alan Turner(44:44.748)
I would say I’m saying okay, that’s fine. You should discover your voice, but then what happens when somebody doesn’t understand you when they don’t get you that first time around? And so then you need to come up with a plan B or plan C. So it’s sort of the same thing in English as some or in teaching a language, if somebody doesn’t understand you, just saying it louder and repeating it the same way isn’t helpful. So then you have to learn other strategies of circumlocution or acting out or other things. So it is great to be you.
Great to have that voice, but then re realize what happens if you aren’t understood, or even worse, if you’re misunderstood. Then what strategy do you have to try and get rid of those misunderstandings and to clarify them? So that’s great. But then also be aware of potential misunderstandings or lack of understandings and how will you address those?
Norah Jones(45:30.43)
And that literally you’re here you’re talking about them taking some responsibility for that lack of understanding if they’re not willing to take the steps. That’s great. yeah, I can’t I can’t resist it. I got one more question for you. I just can’t resist it. You know I can’t. You know I can’t. And whenever whenever I see you, I’ve always got to ask you thirteen thousand questions and I just have they have to drag me away for lunch. But here’s another one is what’s your biggest concern for the for the near future?
Alan Turner(45:57.25)
My biggest concern for the near future is, and it’s been a concern of mine in education for a long time, that we’re often too concerned about end result instead of process in education. That it’s like people are worrying about AI, or before that we were worrying about computers or other things. It’s like well, we n it’s like in a math class, or it’s just like it’s here’s the answer. It should never be about the answer. It’s about the process and critical thinking. And so if we can get beyond
worrying about just an end and what should the students be or what jobs should they get or what technical training do they need. Well, most of these students are most of them are going to be working in jobs 10 or 20 years from now that don’t exist right now. So we should be providing them with skills and with the ability to get wisdom out of knowledge instead of trying to teach them individual, finite, definable skills. Again, there’s nothing wrong with those skills and they will need particular knowledge, but then what happens when that knowledge base is outdated?
And those skills are no longer required. And then they need to come up with something else. And so that’s we need to make sure that we sort of keep our eyes on the prize of dealing with the process and creating capable, critically thinking, creative students who will then be able to create the opportunities to succeed in the future and to deal with the obstacles and the challenges that are going to arise that we can’t foresee yet.
Norah Jones(47:21.528)
Thank you. See? I just love it. Thank you so much for that. I knew that was wonderful questions. I really appreciate the conversation. I hope you enjoyed your time with Alan Turner on this podcast conversation. And I’m especially interested in what you were discovering about your own identity, your own feeling of welcome or exclusion, your own grappling with what language has been in your life. Share that.
Share that with the world because you help to change lives for the better when you bring the power of language to people’s identity and lives and contributions to the world. Thank you for listening to this podcast. Please check out my information and read and links that Alan has shared with me on my website, fluency.consulting. And until next time.
S6E8: The Courage to Be Seen with John Tessitore – It's About Language, with Norah Jones
- S6E8: The Courage to Be Seen with John Tessitore
- S6E7: Onward Together: The Energy Behind Language Advocacy & Collaboration with Joy Peyton
- S6E6: Power of Young Voices | Students at Language Advocacy Days
- S6E5: It’s Not Just What You Say: The Hidden Power of Language and Communication with Charlie Hanchett
- S6E4: From Library French Lessons to Global Impact with Maureen Manning.
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